Saturday, July 12, 2014

Women are not entirely to blame for PUA sites!

I am no longer a follower of Black Women's Empowerment sites. The reason is because these sites have made it clear that they are meant for African American (AA) women and that non-AA women do not have a place in their conversations about the way AA women are perceived. Our opinions are not welcome in conversations about how to improve the image of AA women and how they can improve their lives. We have been told to deal with our own problems (frankly, I tired of the continual focus on television in their posts). I realize that my life is different from AA women and I don't need to do many of the things suggested on their sites. It's okay for me to think differently from them and to not feel serious issues for them are serious issues for me. That's fine. So I stopped regularly reading those sites.

For some reason today I was bored and couldn't find anything to read so I ventured over to this post on Neecy's Nest (the issues on the blog are for AA women so I don't have the same opinions about them and I won't post on BWE sites anymore, but I can always post on my own blog). The post is called It's time for Western women to fess up. First off, I can't believe what I read. In my opinion, the post basically blames women for Elliot Rodgers going on a shooting rampage in Santa Barbra, California because he couldn't get women to sleep with him! Talk about blaming the victim...

At the time when the shooting occured I read many articles about it and opinions. This was the FIRST time I saw a WOMAN blaming WOMEN for the shooting! This guy was a a former member of PUA (Pick Up Artist) sites and when he was still unsuccessful with women he joined a site called PUA HATE where men complain about PUA sites and bash women. Now I can understand why writers blamed the sites because of the things written there that influenced Rodger's thinking. There was some really hateful stuff posted on those sites, but for the record, apparently Rodger posted some alarming things and members tried to talk him down but it didn't work.

Well the thing that bothered me about Neecy's post was that there was no empathy at all for women's experiences with dating and how that influenced them! I think both men and women are to blame for the state of dating nowadays. In the post it seemed as though women were stupid, selfish beings who purposefully chose "bad boys" instead of "nice guys" just to be mean or because they didn't know what was best for them. Nice guys are apparently innocent victims of women's evil. This is the sort of thing that is written on PUA and Manosphere sites and it's coming from a woman! I will admit that I have gone in on feminists, didn't have entirely negative views of PUA sites, and think women are partially to blame for the state of dating today but I never supported the aforementioned ideas because they are totally one sided. So below I'm going to list some common experiences and beliefs that many women have about relationships and what they want that may leave "nice guys" without partners. I think it's ridiculous and harmful to blame women who are strangers for getting shot because they didn't want to sleep with someone! I chose to write this because I was just so shocked by what I read!

  1. Many young women do not know what nice guys are.  Some girls grow up with fathers/relatives who are mean/abusive to their mothers or themselves so they can like someone who treats them badly  while women who have good fathers would never date the same guys. These women think there is always abuse in relationships and that not being mistreated is a fairy tale. They expect guys to mistreat them sooner or later so they are not scared off when a guy isn't nice to them. Unfortunately the abuse has confused the women so they go for men like their abusive fathers. These women often have low self-esteem and think they are worthless and don't believe it when people say otherwise.  PUA sites give advice about how to find women with low self-esteem or how to lower women's self-esteem in order to get sex. If a woman ends up with bad guy after bad guy she may assume they are all bad and be suspicious of "nice guys" who she things will turn bad eventually anyway. These abused women will often have sex quickly too because they feel it is the only thing they can offer and that men only value them for sex. 
  2. Women become wiser and should not be blamed for not knowing more when they were younger. Later on when women realize what they were doing they change who they date due to that wisdom. I think it's totally unfair to chastise young women who aren't even fully mentally developed for making wrong choices when dating. Everyone makes mistakes. Young men also make many mistakes. Young men may be abusive, make poor life choices, sacrifice grades and career development for fast money to impress girls and end up with nothing to impress grown women, engage in criminal activities that make them non-marriage material etc. They may go for looks over character and personality for most of their lives. The same men on PUA sites have only been attracted to women rated 7-10 for most of their lives and have yet to figure out that they could have relationships with women closer to their attractiveness level! These men are still choosing women entirely based on looks and are surprised when some women do the same. Many of these men continue to prioritize sex over relationships when they know women don't and are surprised when women don't have sex with them right away. They keep trying to get sex with new women when men in relationships have the most sex. So both men and women make strange choices.
  3. Women are not mind readers and may not know if a guy is nice or mean until she gets to know him. I don't know why people assume a woman will automatically know a good guy. Most men are on their best behaviour when they meet a woman and it's only later that the bad behaviour comes up. The women don't know the guy was abusive, a criminal, or a cheater. Unless you have known a guy for a long time you won't know if he is a good guy or not. Many bad guys lie about being good guys and if they are handsome and charismatic then a woman will fall for it. They may be persuaded by an attractive man giving them attention because they don't feel they deserve it (just as a pretty woman can talk men into doing things they wouldn't do for a less attractive woman). On the other hand, if a supposed "nice guy" is awkward and unattractive he may not be able to convince women he is a good catch. PUA sites teach men how to convince women they are good guys. Our society also teaches that people should get second chances, don't judge a book by it's cover, and that people change so even if a women hears negative things about a guy she may still give him a chance. Many young people also think they are special so a young woman may believe that even if a guy is mean to others he will be good to her. Or she could believe "love conquers all" and that the man's problems won't matter as long as they are in love. This is constantly the message in romantic films, books, and songs.
  4. When people are abused as children they often (consciously or unconsciously) blame themselves for the abuse and try to prove their worth to bad guys. So when a girl meets a guy and he isn't nice she may blame herself. She then thinks that if she acts nice, treats him well, doesn't complain, or makes herself look good (ride or die type of girl) then he will start being nice to her. Many women have the belief that if they are nice or look good then men will be good to them. It happens in fairy tales and romantic books and films all the time (e.g., beauty and the beast). Just think of any film where the man is hard, mean, or in trouble and a nice, kind woman is exactly what he needs to see the error of his ways, open his heart, and transform himself (e.g., manic pixie dream girls). Women are taught from a young age to be kind and nice and that they can change men. 
  5. The halo effect is a psychological phenomenon where people associate good traits with people who are good looking (or have other good traits). So, if a woman sees a good looking guy she may unconsciously believe that he has other good traits but will unconsciously believe an unattractive guy has negative traits. As said above a woman may be pursuaded to date or sleep with an attractive guy just as men are easily persuaded to date and put up with attractive women who are not good for them. Men sometimes try to shame women for going for guys based on looks but this is hypocritical. If women went for men based on popularity, talent, or money someone would be complaining about that too. People look for more than one thing in a partner and personality unfortuantely is not enough. Think about how many times you looked at someone and were surprised at the negative things you learned about them because they looked so clean cut, nice, attractive etc. That's the halo effect and women are often surprised when the popular, handsome, successful guy turns out to be a terrible guy.
  6. Women may settle for whoever chooses them. Bad boys may be more bold and assertive in asking women out and pairing that with charisma and attractiveness leads to their dating success. A quiet guy who doesn't put in the effort or seem like he really wants a woman is not going to get her. If you act like a friend a woman will assume that friendship is all you want. Men who are successful with women tend to ask out way more women than men who are unsuccessful. It's partially a numbers game. Men often say they can tell within minutes if they would sleep with someone and if they are girlfriend material, well women do the same thing and they just may not be attracted to you.
  7. A woman may regret getting used by an unattractive man more than being used by an attractive man. Many girls and women have had the experience of being used by men, especially for sex (e.g., sleeping with someone and getting dumped, mistreated, or shamed soon after). So women learn that it is risky to sleep with a man because he may dump her or change right after. So women are selective about who they take that risk with. Many would prefer taking that risk with someone who has relationship potential but one can never be sure of that. The one thing a woman can be sure of is that they are attracted to someone a lot. So, if a man is really attractive a woman may be willing to risk being dumped after because they enjoyed being desired and sleeping with someone attractive. On the other hand, being desired and sleeping with someone unattractive may not be worth it to some women. Having a great thing once is worth more than having a mediocre thing once. Sleeping with someone you are not attracted to is like going to the dentist, but if your dentist is hot it makes it less unpleasant. Many women barely enjoy sex too so it's often a sacrifice only for the man's pleasure so at least they get the pleasure of looking at someone attractive. 
There are more things I could write but I think that's enough for now. When I think back over my choices in men I know that most of these things applied to me and affected my choices. I tried dating a guy I wasn't attracted to once and he ended up being a jerk just like the attractive guys I dated. I've turned down men because they were unattractive to me, they didn't achieve much in life, had kids, were separated, lived too far away, barely had anything to say, smoked, did drugs, or didn't planned to move away so there are many reasons. Many guys are just looking for sex so they don't care about those things. Women and men have different goals and dating standards a lot of the time and it is self-defeating and delusional to expect them to act the same way and make the same choices.  Anyways, the point of the post is that we should not uncritically believe everything these Red Pill guys say because they are only looking at things from one perspective while ignoring most of the reasons why women made the choices they have and instead attributed it to us being stupid or evil. Most of these men would have women if they didn't continually go for women who were out of their league, if men in general would be satisfied with one women for more than a one night stand, and if they stopped insisting that women sleep with them right away.

15 comments:

  1. It's nice to see another post from you! As an African-American young lady, I am embarrassed that those bwe sites won't include the perspectives and opinions of Black women from outside the States. I honestly think that's a grave mistake, seeing as how Black women outside the U.S have higher rate of marriage, education, etc (at least from my observations from ppl I have met).

    I couldn't believe some of the responses to Elliot Rodgers shooting either, so I chose to stay off of social media for a few days so I wouldn't see all the articles. Very sad that it happened but what made it more depressing were the reactions to it.

    I hope to see more posts from you! Your blog along with a few others (a select few, like you there are many sites that I cannot relate to) inspired me to start my own. I'm very interested in self-improvement and helping other young black women recognize and appreciate their feminine side. If you'd like to share some tips about blogging, share some ideas or just connect I can be reached at enlightenedfemme at gmail.com

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  2. Elegance. Thank you for this post.
    I am looking in horror at what is happening in the BWE sphere. I cannot and will never separate myself from my biracial sisters, my light skinned sisters and my non- AAbw sisters. I will not separate from the community of progressive black women from around the world nor will I war with black men who are inter-racially attached as I am.

    My life has always been about seeing the commonalities among people and making connections. What is occurring in some BWE circles is not for me.

    Let me second what Enlightened Femme has posted. I too hope to see more blogs from you in the future. We need more diversity of thought and opinion not less.

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  3. Thanks for your comments Enlightened Femme and Brends55 :) I was going to post a comment here but it was so long I'm going to make it into a post.

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  4. Wow, I am looking around your blog and I love it. I am glad that you wrote this post because whenever I read Muslim Bushido's blog, I get the feeling that she doesn't like foreign Black people. I am American Black woman born of Jamaican immigrant parents and many of her posts on foreign Blacks taking African Americans' place offended me. It is not my family's fault that they come here from Jamaica and outperform African Americans! And BWE blogs should be geared towards Black women of ALL shades including biracial Black women and Black women all around the world particularly in Western countries like America and Britain.

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  5. You're telling me Coco Sista! She writes like foreign Black people are her enemies just for existing. I think she had some post about how light-skinned and biracial women have to be excluded from using the term "Black" or something. Um, what if Africans decided African American's couldn't use the term Black, wouldn't that be offensive to her? Who are African Americans to decide who is Black and who isn't really? Some of the stuff on that site just makes me shake my head. I think BWE sites should not be surprised if they have readers who are not Americans but cause they didn't call their group African American Women's Empowerment but they can always change their name. They shouldn't assume that on the International Internet that having a group focused on empowering Black women would not attract women outside of the US. Those sites were okay at first but now they've gone off the deep end.

    I'm glad you like the blog :)

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    1. BWE should be included to Black women worldwide NOT just African American women. Most Black women in the world don't live in America. Plus many Black women worldwide go through colorism, sexism and racio misogyny from their men just like African American women do. And Black women from Africa, my home country of Jamaica and other countries need to hear the message of BWE.

      Honestly I think BWE started with good intentions especially addressing the racio misogyny and sickness that African American men inflict on their own women but it is starting to get out of hand. Black women from other countries and cultures need to hear this message. I know this because my family heritage is Jamaican and many of the people there suffer because of the things their men do to the women and all. And Black women from all over the world have to measure up to impossible and racist Eurocentric beauty standards and deal with a lot more than their non Black female counterparts. So I think the BWE message should be spread to ALL Black women NOT just African American Black females.

      P.S. I love your blog. I haven't been able to get off of it because I love reading the articles on here. I have taken tips from your articles and tried to make myself look feminine and beautiful too. Now I have guys smiling and looking at me and getting compliments about my looks.

      For so long, I struggled with my self esteem because I felt that I wasn't attractive because I was bullied in high school. I am 18 and just graduated from high school two months ago. Now I am trying to love and accept myself for who I am.

      Honestly I thank God for your blog

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  6. The sad thing about some of the women on the BWE sites is they do not know how to agree to disagree. It is always about fighting and taking things personally by throwing around insults. I watched with sadness how they went after Gina of WAOD and thrashed her for no reason at all, simply because she does not follow their beliefs.
    And Gina has told them over and over that her blog is not a BWE site, but their problem is that if you don't sound like them, you are an enemy. Much of the BWE's ideas come from Rev Lisa Vasquez who have taught them a whole lot, and now they have the nerve to trash her simply because she identified herself as Puerto Rican.
    My husband is Anglo Irish and many of his friends are of diverse white ethnic groups and they get along fine. Whites are very proud of their diverse ethnic groups. We blacks should be proud of ours too.
    Quarreling with non African American women and pushing them away simply because of these differences is foolish.I laugh at their rejection of multiculturalism.They are incapable of seeing they represent the first spectrum of multiculturalism.
    Most Americans are not black.The main culture of this country is Anglo European and this will never change. Anything else is is part of a minority culture and thus multiculturalism. The very reason why Black American culture is seen as foreign and Black American women are not selected as marriage partners by many non-Black American men is because black American women are perceived to be outsiders or belonging to outside of what the normal culture is.
    Rev Vasquez was the one who talked about divestment, someone changed it around with" following the money trail".
    Rev Vasquez was the one who talked about moving away from black areas, they coined the term moving out of " Blackistan".
    Rev Vasquez talked about forming alliances with individuals and other ethnic groups and making sure there is reciprocity. And she went into depth in this area.
    And this is the area that African American women have the biggest problem with even more than African American men because black men can move smoothly among many groups in this country but black American women have a serious problem adjusting to outsiders and are the most isolated women in this country.
    Haitians, West Indians and Latin black women don't have a problem here, somehow they always appear friendlier to non-blacks than African American women who rarely leave the comfort zone of their ethnic group and always appear to be uptight when dealing with non-blacks and foreigners.
    And this is what we are really seeing on their sites, the inability to deal with people who are not like them. They need to see what they are doing wrong; and this is why often most of the black women married to non-black men belong to the foreign black groups.
    I tell young black women to choose their friends carefully and to try very hard to associate with non-black and foreign women, and to enter non-black circles because this will help them to get out of their isolation. This is the only way black women will know what the real world is and nor from the mouth of those who are isolated themselves.
    A large number of the BWE sites were created to rile up against American black men simply because they have married out. Black American men and women have an ongoing back and forth hatred and they need to keep it to themselves.
    The sad thing is a good many white men know this. Many of the BWE sites are the result of Black American men marrying out and the resentment by many of these women, and it has led to many of them now calling out for marrying out too. It is simply a retaliation against Black men marrying out.
    Non-Black men are not foolish.

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  7. Continuation:
    In the Western world,Caribbeans, Haitians and Black Latin women have always been marrying out. The only Black women in this hemisphere who have always been against it or had a history of shunning it were African American women, and maybe to some extent the Jim Crow laws of segregation was one of the reasons for this. Those laws never existed in South America and the Caribbean and therefore the ones marrying out were usually black women and not black men.

    And I am for the success and prosperity of Black women worldwide therefore the plight of African American women is my concern too.
    The same way white people living in the most powerful country in the world (USA) impact on other whites worldwide, Blacks living in the most powerful country in the world also impact on Blacks worldwide.
    It is in the interest of foreign Black women that African American do well and prosper because we have always looked up to them and aspire for their best interest, when often they do not know or care about our stories, martyrs and heroes and we have always known theirs. And last, I just hope these black women this side of the globe understand and realize when they finally open the door and walk out of their dreadful isolation and enter the real world, they will have to interact with Becky, Mei Ling, Marisol, biracial women, foreign black women and light skinned women. Living in an isolated world with Jose, Doug and Ling Ching is practically impossible .

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  8. Elegant Black Woman: Keep up the good work. Your site is classy, intelligent, enlightening and a breath of fresh air.

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  9. 1 Halima Anderson was the first BWE Blogger followed by Evia Moore. Rev Lisa was not the creator of BWE. I have book dates and links to dispute this.
    2 AA women putting themselves first is not hate for bi racial women or foreign blacks. It's self preservation which is normal and healthy.
    Lovely blog.

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  10. Anonymous:
    I did not post my statement on Elegant Black Woman's site for any fight with strangers, especially black women. If I have offended you or anyone else with my statement, I am sorry.

    I never said Rev Lisa was the creator of anything.Rev Lisa Vasquez was able to put her ideas in a very academic and instructional way.It is about time black women stop fighting over the internet over differences of opinions.I will tell you in the real world, many of you will be eaten up alive; sometimes we must learn to bite our tongues and agree to disagree.No one has ever said that self preservation was a bad idea for African American women.

    Stop this throwing insults around, it does not make black women look good. And biracials, light skinned, mixed women and any other women have nothing against black women,but black women have to believe this.
    If you are going to marry out, expect to have biracial daughters and sons, and you will have to love and accept them.
    White and non-black women adore their biracial children.I know some white women who actually believe that biracial and black children are more beautiful than other children.

    Another thing, I have an advice for younger black women( and I hope many of you can see it with good intentions), I will suggest that you spread your nets wider than some of the so called BWE sites have suggested. Many Latino men, Asian men and Middle Eastern men have no qualms having children with black women.
    And I am for the success and prosperity of Black women worldwide therefore the plight of African American women is my concern too.
    The same way white people living in the most powerful country in the world (USA) impact on other whites worldwide, Blacks living in the most powerful country in the world also impact on Blacks worldwide.
    It is in the interest of foreign Black women that African American do well and prosper because we have always looked up to them and aspire for their best interest, when often they do not know or care about our stories, martyrs and heroes and we have always known theirs. And last, I just hope these black women this side of the globe understand and realize when they finally open the door and walk out of their dreadful isolation and enter the real world, they will have to interact with Becky, Mei Ling, Marisol, biracial women, foreign black women and light skinned women. Living in an isolated world with Jose, Doug and Ling Ching is practically impossible

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  11. Correction: And biracials, light skinned , mixed women and any other women have nothing over black women, but black women have to believe this.

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  12. Hi Kim,
    Thank you for your responses, I meant to reply sooner but life happened and I got busy. I agree with at lot of what you said. I personally don't feel the need to argue anymore about who started BWE or whatever because I'm not a part of their group and I don't feel the need to read what they write anymore. I wasn't reading much of it to begin with and I was only a participant on Beyond Black and White anyway. It doesn't matter, it's for AA women not for me. If someone says it can help me I don't think so because what they wrote was either something I thought and was doing anyway, something too extreme for my circumstances, or it really didn't apply to my situation. I'll be fine without it. There have been plenty of self-help materials before BWE and I wasn't swept up into ghetto culture, never lived in a dangerous place, and dated interracially all my life without needing to be reassured about it. I need to write something about how freeing it feels to not have to conform to the AA idea of blackness and I can be free to think, act, and like what I want. It may be extreme to some but in some ways what BWE activists wrote reminded me of what male AA activists and many AA males do when they say what all Black people should think and do. I'll save it for the post, but basically I got that same uneasy feeling that if one didn't think or act in the way that makes sense to them then one was brainwashed, acting against their best interests, or a fool. I just need to get away from believing what AA people write about blackness, not because they are wrong or bad, but because it should only apply to AA people. Other black people have different circumstances and problems, their histories are different, their concerns are different. Even if in the minds of AA people I'm brainwashed or something, I'm just going to enjoy my life as best I can, brainwashed or not because as long as I'm happy and my needs are met I really don't care.

    I've read time and time again that AA women isolate themselves and BWE is heading in the same direction. AA women can put themselves first all day everyday but that is different from being dismissive, hostile, and negative towards non-AA women, light skinned, and biracial women. I think that is what people like me are picking up on, that instead of being neutral towards these groups BWE writers were being rude and hateful. I think some believe that since dark-skinned or AA women are often put down and other women are propped up then AA women have to even things out by putting the other women down. That doesn't even things out, it just makes you look mean just as those who put down AA women look mean. I don't know what it will take for AA or dark skinned women to be propped up but I don't think putting others down will help them. I'm fine with them propping themselves up but I won't feel guilty for who I am or condone negativity that will hurt my future children.

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  13. Elegance: You are welcome.I agree, much of what is said on their sites are not new, but ideas that intelligent and normal women have been practicing everyday .

    And regarding being black,I am a free woman. I will not allow myself to be corralled into anyone's definition of blackness. I am a human being first and I identify with other human beings with whom I share the same dreams,religiosity,politics,gender,race, humanity,culture, nationality, opinions, etc. I am not bound entirely to them alone either. I do not believe in isolation; and I am of the firm opinion that women should know their real enemies and not make up false ones . That is AAW's biggest flaw, and a sign of paranoia and of profound isolation.

    They complain about African American men and colorism and their preference for light skinned women with a certain hair texture, and they are the ones who promote the same foolishness too.
    Who raised those men? Certainly nobody else but black women.
    Their failure to take on some kind of responsibility in their own cultural destruction is appalling.
    Who are the biggest protagonists in lowering the image of black women? Where is the epicenter of this madness taking place ?
    They were the ones who laughed at Gabby Douglas' hair , confounding the entire world because non blacks do not know anything about black hair and foreign black women were just too proud of her. If Gabby had so called "nice hair", she would never have been criticized by AAW. Even Blue Ivy, has received the brunt of their dislike for her hair.

    There is a beautiful world out there and I stay far away from negative,hostile, angry and foolish people who blame others for things they are the only ones with the power to change.
    Choosing who we associate with and what we listen to is paramount in attaining our already God designed happiness.

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  14. Interesting how the AA women are treating other black women similarly to how they treat black men with exclusion and disdain. The same is going on amongst black men - a purge of light skin and mixed blacks. Only the darker AA's have the right to claim blackness in their minds.

    All AA women who follow the feminist mindset are unhappy so it's good you're not in it.

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